AM! Forum Book Club UPDATED for Zarathustra

I think what Nietzsche means by god is dead, is that the idea of a creator watching over us and judging us based on a specific set of morals is irrelevant.
I take it as a call to arms for people to wake up and realize that we are our own path to greatness.

Or you could take it from Palahniuk's mouth in fight club(sorry can't resist) that god just doesn't care about us.

The ubermench idea, loosely, is that man is just another stage in evolution. Zarathustra is highly critical of man and thinks mankind has stalled, so he’s trying to teach the overman. The problem is the people don't understand that self-overcoming is an individual act of the will and isn’t something that can be achieved by following a set of rules. They don't get that it's an internal struggle to be great in every second of life, and when he (she, whoever) can finally do that, he is the overman and lives a truly satisfying life because he never regrets his actions.
(insert eternal return theme here).

“I say to you: one must still have chaos in oneself in order to give birth to a dancing star.”

A lot of ideas in that one. take it for what it's worth.

Again, I think quoting himself on the "God is dead" is his way of being cocky and reminding us of his previous work. Sure it fits in with what's going on and it also let's us into a glimpse of personality. He doesn't hide his thoughts from the reader; he describes his conversation with people and describes his personal thoughts as well.

To Benedetto: What I was leaning towards was "Is Nietzsche mocking Plato?" The resemblance is just too concise.


“I say to you: one must still have chaos in oneself in order to give birth to a dancing star.”

This also reminds me of the Buddhist idea that states one must first burn completely in order to rise from the ashes.

No one answered my question though!

god is dead is a recurring theme throughout the book. I know it was introduced the in the gay science, but we'll run into later and it will be easier to grasp then.
Basically, god being dead is the cause for nihilism in a 'believer'.

To specifically respond to your question about the Serpent and the Eagle, Tangerine. I've tried to research it a little on google, and to me it seems there is no definitive answer. I suggest we keep reading and look back at a later time. I'll try to find some scholarly articles about it.

When I sat down to read this I was ready for a heavy and serious work, but I find that is filled with quite a bit of humor as well. It appears to me that the way he is writing this is very personal. So I agree with what you were saying Tangerine. And the point I'm getting at is that this book is distinctively philosophy and not doctrine. When he says "God is Dead" or talks about the idea of the superman, he is not giving us a list to follow or demanding us to live in an exact way. He wants us to explore these themes for ourselves.

I don't think he is mocking Plato at all. Indeed Nietzsche may have been critical of him, but he was still influenced by him and the Allegory is a very influential piece of work which I believe can stand on its own apart from philosophical ideology which is why Nietzsche was comfortable drawing on it.

I feel a different way about it, because the Sun is often representative of God or something divine, but I believe he is only using it in the more philosophical approach of wisdom or knowledge and understanding. Which is more likely do to his highly educated philosophical background.


To me the theme (for lack of a better word) of "God is Dead" is entirely important and entirely unimportant.

The eagle and the serpent are his companions, metaphorically and otherwise. I was taking it in the wrong context in the prologue.

The character is a hermit and they are his cuddly buddies

The idea that god is dead becomes much clearer in the fourth part of the book, he elaborates on it there
Zarathustra wants to eradicate Christianity but avert nihilism.

godisdead listen homie, i havent gotten to that part of the book yet so i cant comment on it right now. what i do know is that i agree with benedetto god is dead is really irrelevant at this point. I think that your war against god is not really relevant and your understanding of Nietzsche as some one who sees God as being dead is a bit misguided. i agree with tangerine that the Nietzsche is probably speaking from a more agnostic point of view (probably is a god, don't know what it truly is) in part one the section titled "on teachers of virtue" not only is this title another allusion to Plato/ Socrates (remember when Socrates goes into the court room to plead his case but ends up disusing what virtue/piety is with the man who is gonna put his father on trial for murder) but is also an allusion to the Bhagavad-gita (hindu sacrad text also known as krishna's council in time of war) the sixth teaching/chapter "the man of dicipline"among others. in this chapter krishna also warns against those who would sleep too much and well as gives advice on how man can gain true freedom ( i suggest you read it its pretty sweet and a quick read) i guess im just irritated a little bit not at you but at my Generation i feel like we have have become the last man. we create our own happiness, philosophy pawned of as a sound bite. atheism being spoon feed to kids who are too lazy to do the hw (you dont know what love is you just do as your told). theology/philosophy is not easy, if it was this would be a prefect world.

First off, I'm stoked that we are all reading this book. and sorry for getting ahead of our schedule, I just haven't read the book in a while and am rediscovering how great it is.


Second, we are all going to disagree( or at least you are, with me) on some level, but I don't believe anything written in the book in "irrelevant". I believe every word was written with a purpose...why else would it be in there?

And I don't want to come off as an atheist or a nihilist at all, because I'm not. I don't take Nietzsche to be preaching, "god is dead so we can do whatever we want," but that his morality is dead.

My understanding is that one of Zarahustra’s biggest fears, so far in the book, is that mankind has hit a plateau, and with god dead, now lacks direction.

"...if humanity still lacks a goal, does it still not lack humanity itself?"

one of my fav lines so far...anyone else have any favorites?

I have a favorite, but we haven't gotten there yet. tsk.

We relevance of the "god is dead" line is probably the most argued. I still think he was quoting himself to remind us of his previous work, but that doesn't mean it has no relevance to the plot. It's was his Intro. EVERYTHING in that intro is relevant!

-thus wisdom wants us: she is a woman and always loves only a warrior.

i thought that line was pretty sweet. man the more i read this book the more i see how beautiful it is. Nietzsche is goin wild on all sorts of philosophers when i read "on the despisers of the body" i could see him giving Descartes the finger.

ultimo323 wrote:

-thus wisdom wants us: she is a woman and always loves only a warrior.

i thought that line was pretty sweet. man the more i read this book the more i see how beautiful it is. Nietzsche is goin wild on all sorts of philosophers when i read "on the despisers of the body" i could see him giving Descartes the finger.

indeed!

Richard Strauss - Thus Spake Zarathustra. Op. 30.